northernmusician's Journal, 15 Dec 15

I would be careful with counting calories and using it as a plan for maintenance. Not all calories are equal, and absorption of calories depends a lot on the ability of gut microbes to breakdown food and nutrients. I think what you'll find is that you'll eat certain foods in combination for lunch and dinner, and the occasional high carb meal, etc.. and still maintain weight without having to log. You'll know when you're off track, and a quick couple of weeks worth of food logs will set you back on track. As we get older, we naturally hold more fat, as it is a protective cushion for internal organs...obviously too much is not good. Work to get that body fat % down to sub 15% and disregard what the scale says in the process. 

I'd love to go that way, John. In fact, I'm closer to that than I've ever been. I'm finding I'm far less obsessive about 'weight' and more concerned with leaning out. I agree not all calories are created equal. Reading Wheat Belly right now and I'm considering a month of no grains just to see what happens. I don't have a problem that way other than dealing with the craving part once I've started on grain carbs. I agree about 'standard meals' and can pretty much eyeball a meal because I spent a fair amount of time on the Zone diet balancing carbs, proteins, and fats, and that concept is still my fall back when traveling. Thanks for the input. I value your thoughts. 

Silly silly you cannot bulk and cut at the same time! I have been working with my trainer and its a sad reality. I want to keep gaining muscle strength but I need to lose more fat. Obviously our goals are different but it still applies to females as well. After doing research and working with my trainer I learned that it will be easier to "bulk" after you cut the fat. But I am sure since you are in maintenance you can bulk now. It may just require more calories. But if you decide to do more cutting go for it. Its tough and thats where I am having such a hard time =(  

You can clean bulk/cut at the same time. When looking at a clean bulk, you cannot focus solely on the scale, instead you use scale in conjunction with body fat%, and time when you eat your carbs. The old mindset of eat a bunch of carbs, excess protein...lift heavy weights...bulk up, then cut fat and lose a lot of muscle in the process to be left with a few lbs of muscle gain is simply not worth it and quite frankly outdated. You're much better off eating LCHF, then cycling in your high carbs post-workout to maximize your insulin response and bio-availability of amino's, protein's, and glucose to muscle cells. Remember...your body is only ever in two states, Fat storage or Fat burning. When carbs are incoming, you are Fat storing, however, post-workout, your muscles are calling for the glucose and amino's and protein's, as a result, you do not store glucose as fat, it is needed, and used. 

Panigale, I used to think that way, but as mahjohn says, it's pretty much an outmoded idea. It's a 70s/80s bb dogma back when most people were using steroids to bulk up. I find the cycle of weight gain, even 20 pounds, to be too difficult as the dieting down takes too long. My question to you would be, how long after a cut can your body start making muscle again. I've always struggled with the apparent concept that you must gain fat in order to gain muscle. I think you can cycle through quite well. Recently they've discovered that muscle is not pirated until at least 72 hours after an extreme calorie deficit. That's another struggle I have with the current dogma - that the body will quit using fat for energy in favour of muscle after a certain period of time. Fat is designed to be used as energy when there is a deficit. I just think that putting on 20-30 pounds as a 'bulk' is an excuse to gorge, and for me, I'd much rather cut calories for two days a week than cut calories for 13 weeks after a 30 week binge. That's my take anyway. Would love to see more discussion on this. 

Mahjohn - I agree, by the way, on the weight thing, and because of your comment, I've realized that I do not have a 'goal weight'. I have a goal leanness and a performance goal. Try to keep the PRs coming while keeping the fat stores in check. Do you have a preferred site that you use for using the calipers for measuring? I'm finding it a little difficult to pinch a consistent measurements on the abdomen. 

http://accufitness.com/body-fat-calipers/accu-measure-fitness-3000-personal-body-fat-tester One position measurement.... Fingers only go in the finger hold positions.. Flex the abs..... Cheap and accurate. For women, they're sneaky, as they like to store fat in multiple areas... Back of arms, gut, hips, thighs... So 3 or 7 position is needed. For men, we store in the gut primarily with overspill elsewhere, and one position is possible. So if you're a woman and pear shaped, lower body fat may not be they look you want, but you're at less of a risk than if you're apple shaped. 

You are right in what you are saying. I guess being a female I am coming from a different standpoint. As of now. I am not cutting too many calories. I gained a lot of muscle/strength in the last 8 months working with my trainer. My weight only went from 158-150ish. My body fat staying the same, yet I can see strength gains and muscle definition. It is frustrating to not see any fatloss yet I keep gaining muscle. urhg! I feel in order to lose the fat I need to cut the calories (obviously) but in cutting the calories to lose fat I wont lose my strength but keep it where it is? Muscle needs fuel. (no I dont think we need to binge to gain muscle because I sure havn't been binging) But that is where I am frustrated! I believe after the holidays I am going to have to clean up my diet even more-cut calories slightly and no cheating. I think thats the only way I will see fatloss  

Paningale, look at it from another angle. You stored fat to be used in times of famine and winter, a time when sugars (carbohydrates) see not available. If you are eating sugars at the wrong time, why would your body ever need to use the fat you stored for emergencies? Cutting calories simply delays and slows your bmr processes. As you've gained muscle, they're well fed, however to mobilize and use stored fat for energy, cut back on the carbs and increase your fats for a few weeks, and if you're eating carbs in the morning... Don't, a hormone increase in the morning may last all day, keeping you in stasis. 

Panigale, if you're seeing those kind of muscle definition and strength gains, something is off. I'd say a drop of 8 pounds while making those gains, a weight loss of 1 pound per month, means you're somehow wrong about maintaining your fat stores while gaining strength. I'd say you've done something extremely right. You likely miscalculated your fat % somewhere along the way. If you're gaining strength, though it could be mostly nerve strength, it's more likely there is muscle gains elsewhere. Don't forget muscle can be 'spot' increased. Fat can't. I think you've got it right. 

Very interesting discussion. This is one of the things I love about this site and it always leads me to search out new information and continue to learn. 

@ Northern I hope so. I use one of the hand held devices that you put your age, sex, height and weight in and then you hold it up and apparently it sends a signal through your body calculating the BF%? Maybe the thing sucks. But I have been stuck at the 150-151 weight now for 2-3 months. I got to 149 before thanksgiving then I got back up to 151 after thanksgiving. So its hard to tell if I am making any BF progress. Cause right now that is my main goal. @Mahjohn So you are suggesting if I eat any carbs as in (potatoes/fruit) eat them around the evening/dinner? I guess I can cut the carbs more and up the fat. I have no issue with that. I usually have some carb to keep my energy levels because I train pretty much everyday. I did try 50g carb a day in the past and I was so sluggish and fatiqued (even while getting 8 hours of sleep a night) and once I uped my carbs to around 100g a day I felt amazing and now I am able to get through my workouts. After vacation I will try cutting the carbs more-keep the diet clean and eat my carbs towards the evening and see how I do thanks for the advice!  

Majohn, Calorie counts can work. I've been on maint. for about 1.5 years and staying up and down within a couple of pounds averaging over a week at a stead 128. I have a calorie amt of 1400 per day averaged also over a week. I stay on my WOE of whole foods lots of veggies, fruits, whole grains, legumes and some animal protein. So calorie counts work fine for me. I rarely eat junk foods, avoid processed most of the time, Certainly just calories don't cut it if you are eating junk. Stick with mostly nutrient dense foods.  

Real "Food" is key, however, far too many people use Calorie counting as an exact science, when it is not, it can't be, not even under lab conditions. There is no law of Physics that says Energy In = Energy Out, therefore use more than you intake and you lose weight...it just does not exist. There is a law, the second law of thermodynamics (Law of Entropy) that states in essence that energy will be lost and energy will be used to make energy available. When you eat carbs or protein for example. 100 calories of Carbohydrates do not equate to 100 calories of energy, because energy used and lost to make energy available, so that 100 calories is only providing around ~90 - 93 calories worth of energy to the body, for protein, there is greater loss, only 70 calories are provided for every 100 calories lost. So when I see all the TDEE and BMR calculators, I can only laugh, because they claim to be so precise, and I see overweight people using these for Gospel and sticking exactly one specific caloric number, when it's really fuzzy math. FYI...for Fat the loss is only 2-3%, so you get more bang for your buck with Fat. 

@northern. The handheld units operate the same as the ones you stand on. They use "Bio-Electric Impedance Analysis" or BIA. Muslce tissue is 75% water, it's basically a hydraulic device....it's why it's so strong, hydraulics are extraordinary devices. The more muscle you have means the more water you have, i.e., the faster the currently will flow (less fat). The slower the current flows (more Fat) show that you have less muscle and less water. However, with the handheld unit, why do you need to specify "Athletic, or Normal"? It's fudging the resulting output. Use a tape measure around calf, thigh (midpoint between knee and crotch), waist (narrowest point..typically 2" above navel), chest (usual), and triceps. Even without the calipers (best), this will let you know where things are changing. If you get calipers and can get some help in performing a 3 position measurement, you can use the site ExRx.net to input the data and get an % reading. Women's biology and horomone levels are different from men, women are fat storing machines. Female body-builders are at 13-15% body fat, while men are at 3-4% a huge difference. Bikini Models are at 18-20%, while a 6-pack guy is at 10-12%. When a woman's hormone levels jump from eating carbs early in the day, they can stay elevated for most of the day, leaving them in a fat storing mode a lot longer than they realize. Potatoes are sugar (this is how you should see them), they are absorbed rapidly, too fast, very little fiber, and have no place in a daily weight loss program. The same goes for Fruit. I no...sacrilegious. Fruit is high in fructose/glucose, and has only a little fiber. Yes it has vitamins, but you can get that elsewhere in veggies. One of the most important vitamins for cell repair is Vitamin-E, this is only fat soluble...eat up your good fats. Butter, Avocado, Fish, Chicken with Skin, Meats. If you do have carbs, make them complex, slow digesting, i.e. quinoa, etc.. and have them later in the day, not early in the day. You are more sensitive to incoming energy spikes and fat storage first thing in the morning than at any other time of day. FYI, if you increase those fats, you'll have more energy, as you run better and longer from fats than carbs. 

@mahjohn wow thanks for the advise. I will deff use this and give your advise a try. Since I am struggling with the fat loss currently. Like i said, no issues with muscle gains- I see the definition in my body and also my PR's have risen. Its just the fat. So in this case I will give your pointers a go and see how it goes for me. I can easily avoid potatoes. But I don't think I can go without all fruit. I may have one serving of berries here and there. I dont want my diet change to be miserable but sustainable.  

Berries here and there is perfectly fine, no need to completely avoid them, a little here and there. Sometimes people "stall" and recomp takes a long time, and often a boost of fat intake and cutting protein helps to get things moving along....good luck. 

Thanks! Cant complain- fat is delicious. I believe upping the fat intake can help reduce cravings for the sugary stuff anyway.  

maintenance is hard ... and so are the holidays,, im glad that others see it the way I do too.. just trying not to gain this season..  

I'm never buy into the age excuse - especially for men, as they've never blown out their bodies with a baby. Some of the fittest, trimmest guys I've ever met were over 50. You got this.