billruse's Journal, 09 Mar 15

Good idea to up protein, and down fat. Protein seems to help a lot for weight loss. I still think 40% protein / 40% carbs / 20% fat is the best ratio, but what do I know? 

Are you REALLY waiting an answer on that question Giles....(huge big grin) 

@I will win, what does anyone know these days? Apparently all the doctors are wrong and carbs are a drug says John Kiefer. 

Giles, if it was not on TV then it is all wrong. ! 

what does anyone know these days?? a hell of a lot more than we knew 50 years ago when they dished out the "fat is bad" doctrine!! surely new evidence shouldn't be ignored simply because it goes against the grain? (no pun intended!) 

50 Years ago it was OK to smoke....new evidence proves this wrong. Fifty years ago it was OK to be overweight, ......new evidence proves this wrong. Fifty years ago it was OK to drink and get drunk......new evidence proves this wrong......When I was ten years old my father taught me to smoke by giving me a cigarette standing by his chair to smoke it…… I gave up 8 years ago and I have just been diagnosed with a huge shadow on my lung now waiting for results of a PET scan …… new evidence has proven smoking is wrong……………. There is no way we can ignore new evidence no way at all. !!! 

@I will win, sorry to hear that. Wish you all the best with the results. 

@drullae, I wasn't around 50 years ago so I don't know what the "fat is bad" doctrine was all about. As I grew up I simply learned that foods with high amounts of sugar in them sweets, soda, and "junk food" were to be eaten in moderation. I wasn't a fussy eater and liked most food including beans, vegetables, all kinds of meat. I wasn't so keen on fish, and didn't like eggs. I learned that some foods were marketed as low fat. I always assumed this was primarily for dieters, since by removing the fat you reduce the overall calories. I have since learned that it is actually more of a marketing ploy and to make the low fat food taste nice they add fillers and SUGARS!! Well what's the point in that? This is not true of other low fat foods like cottage cheese, skimmed milk, liquid egg whites etc. I eat all of those foods because they are low calorie, high protein sources. I also eat fish now, for the same reason. Protein was my main focus when I started to actually think about my nutrition a few years ago, because I wanted to build muscle, and I knew I needed protein to do that. As I learned more about "clean carbs" and "good fat", I have refined my diet. I don't think fat is bad, I think all food groups are important, and getting the right balance is what helps you achieve your goals. In short, I cut calories to lose weight, and balance my macros to determine whether its lean mass or fat that I lose. 

sounds like a good plan. we are basically doing the same thing, i'm refining my diet to burn fat, i'm finding this works well for my exercise and for my health.  

@Giles just interested, have you come across Lyle McDonald and his ketogenic body building philosophy. i'm not trying to convert you i promise!! just wondering with you saying bout building muscle. the body builders seem to go daft over ketosis with high protein, the other half of the argument says high protein just gives you "expensive urine"!. not a body builder myself so don't get involved with their argument on forums my writing for our website (myrunningtips.com....quick plug!!) means i spend a lot of time on nutrition and exercise sites, forums etc, i find it fascinating the difference in opinions and the various diets that work for individuals. i really believe people have to find whats best for themselves, the only thing i get really worked up about is Real Food. we need to stop eating crap and get back to fresh, as you mentioned about low fat foods, we have plenty of natural low fat foods, you don't need to eat something with the goodness taken out and then filled with sugar i also think, but this is just my own personal opinion, that refined wheat is going to be the bad guy for many years to come, if they don't ban it all together. all the footy supporters at the Reebok will be gobsmacked the day they shut the pie stand down!!! 

@drullae, I haven't come across that particular one, but in general i get that the idea of keto in a BB context is to go on a keto cycle for a short period of time, to trick your body into burning stubborn fat, (when you are extremely lean already). Don't get me wrong, for really lean atheletes I think this type of high fat diet is a good "hack". Regarding protein I think they are right about eating too much protein. Sensibly, a BB might go for about 30%, but it also helps with fat loss so when cutting protein might be 40% or more. Yes it is "expensive urine", there is no way you can turn gram for gram all the protein you consume into muscle, so you might eat 200g a day, and only gain maybe 8 grams of muscle or less. Well at the moment I am eating a lot of chicken, I don't know if its grass fed, but its probably a better protein source than isolated whey, but I still consider these both "real food", I am not really sure what you consider as crap, I am not even sure refined wheat is really that bad for you, I know that the bran of the wheat contains more fibre, and that the germ contains more protein. But If I were to eat some wheat bran some wheat germ and some wheat endosperm separately, would that be somehow worse than eating wholemeal bread? In other words is it the refining process that makes it bad or that we are eating the wrong part of the bit they refined out?  

by refined i'm talking about removing the bran and the germ, which contain the best nutrients and leaving the endosperm which is basically just starch (small amount of protein)and quickly turned to simple sugar in body. this is what white flour is, so yeah it is the refining process. if your going to eat grain eat it whole. but really the nutrients they provide can be got from better sources which don't contain phytate. this prevents the body absorbing all the good calcium, iron and zinc in grains 

But this is almost exactly the same argument I used for saying coconut oil was refined, they remove the coconut meat, and water to leave just the oil which is basically just saturated fat. The question is whether that's the good part or the bad part of the nut? Furthermore if you just remove the protein from milk whey, is that bad. I know if I were to drink gallons of milk to get enough protein I would consume far too many calories. Finally what about vitamin tablets, its refined ingredients from lots of different places and recombined back into a complete balance of micronutrients, are these a real food (in terms of micronutrients). Why is it better to get all vitamins and minerals from random quantities present in complete foods?  

Your discussion reminded me of an article I came across http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/why-skim-milk-will-make-you-fat-and/ 

@Glennith, you will have to use a URL shortener e.g tinyurl.com we cannot see all of your link. 

the thing about vitamin tablets is - how do you know you are getting what it says on the tin. yes i'm a bit paranoid but they did a check recently on vitamin tabs , i think it was USA and they contained a bulking agent, thats all, no nutrients. there is also the argument although i'm not sure of the science, that vits and mins from real foods are absorbed more readily and used more effectively in the body than from a tablet. as i say don't know the science of that one. it would make sense as the food passing throught the gut has its various properties absorbed in various ways and at differing points along the way according to make up of the food. the whole purpose of a "balanced diet" is to get all the RDA of vits and mins from food. having said that i put my days food into tracker which tracks vits and mins and i'm getting all my RDA's and most would not consider my diet "balanced".  

i wasn't around 50 years ago btw!! only just but still those 4 years matter...a lot .coconut oil is not just saturated fat it is polyunsaturated and monounsaturated also contains vit E, K and iron. if i was bashing coconuts up i would use the meat and water also as i'm sure in days gone by they did, not much was ever wasted. now i buy the coconut "meat" separate for baking with.  

Thanks @Giles - maybe you shouldn't have told me about tinyurl! http://tinyurl.com/7p7p25v On the subject of vitamin tablets, who is to say that the combinations/amounts that are in them are right for the human body? Or what is right for me is not right for you? Do the majority of people who take them realise that some of the vitamins are fat soluble and can be stored in the body for some time, increasing the risk of toxicity? That's at worst, at best, the tablets may have poor disintigration and be passed out with doing anything and a waste of money. http://tinyurl.com/c7otm2f Two TinyURL's!! 

Regarding the link...Well this is just it. I have never considered skimmed milk a health food. Its just that its lower in calories. You could argue well why not just add water to whole milk, well you could, then it would be lower in calories, AND lower in protein too. The main argument of the article drinking skimmed milk will make you turn to carbs for energy and that will make you fat. Well duh! yes an excess of carbs will make you fat so don't do that then. If one is on a calorie controlled diet then one shouldn't be eating more carbs than the bare minimum that one needs. One should be eating clean carbs with plenty of fibre in them. But the same is true for fat, you shouldn't be eating more than your body needs and this is the crux of our disagreement. You two both believe you need larger quantities of fat, and not the good essential fat either, saturated fat, the exact stuff that you are trying to lose! Yes apparently its less likely to cause heart disease than was previously thought, and yes some vitamins are fat soluble, which means you need a certain amount in your diet to absorb them properly. But to absorb these vitamins its no where near as much as a high fat diet contains. With water soluble vitamins (as someone pointed out on another thread) your body takes what it needs and must be replaced each day. With fat soluble vitamins it true that excess amounts are stored in the body, yes they are stored in bodyfat, AKA saturated fat, but then high fat proponents argue that you should eat more saturated fat than usual increasing the bio-availability of the vitamins and thus increasing the risk of toxicity?  

You know what Guys...... all this talk of how or what to eat is just amazing to read on FS. It really is a strange thing that the very people doing all the technical talk are those who play Yo-Yo with their weight. How come you Geeks don’t show a steady weight loss if you know all this baffling scientific stuff about food. You all talk so much about dieting, using this or that diet this is a subject I do not believe in whatsoever. Healthy eating in my books is so much better changing for life not just for a few weeks. Why not devote you knowledge to those who are in trouble with weight and do not know or understand that if you eat the wrong stuff you get fat, simple as that. Arguing among yourselves looks to me like one is trying to out do the other with knowledge. Well I have the knowledge to understand that 99% of losing weight consists of one thing and one thing only – WILL POWER !!!!